Whereas the first post was reserved mostly for tackling the issue of singleness, this post will serve as a “catch all” for any other questions readers may have. (But please feel free to continue your discussions in the first post.)Dr. Gardner, I’m sure readers will post their own questions. But let me offer just two to get the ball rolling.
(1) With this new paradigm or perspective on human sexuality in mind, what specific, concrete guidelines or instructions would you suggest regarding what is acceptable and unacceptable sexual behavior outside of marriage? Several of my students have discussed their frustration with Christian leaders who in general say, “save yourself for marriage,” but won’t offer any specific ideas about what is OK and what is not OK before marriage.
(2) In addition, what are the implications of this perspective on how we should do “sex education” in our families and churches?
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18 comments:
I sometimes hear youth leaders speak of "second virginity," a restoration of biblical purity for young people who have already been sexually active. Personally, I find this concept to be a red herring--either one is a virgin or not--that detracts from the seriousness of premarital sex. I believe that purity can and should be regained and maintained after the loss of virginity, but the concept of "second virginity" is a cop-out. What are your thoughts on "second viriginity"?
The issue of what to do vs. what not to do before marriage has always been a conflicting issue with me. I believe, of course, that premarital sex is wrong -- but kissing, etc. between two people who are not committed to each other can also be wrong...mostly because the temptation can be so great and the Bible clearly says that Christians should remove themselves from temptation. Things happen in the heat of the moment that should not happen between people who are not married. I certainly am not one to point fingers. On the other hand, I firmly believe that a couple who are committed to marriage (i.e. engaged) to each other have certain leeway that a dating couple does not. I know many couples who choose not to kiss until their wedding date -- this is a choice they have made and far be it from me to claim it's silly -- especially as sexual activity is so tempting -- but once you've made that commitment to each other, I think it's okay to demonstrate that commitment in a normal healthy manner. One could argue that an engaged couple has already made their commitment before the Lord...the rest is just a civil ceremony.
I should clarify the above post by saying that I'm not advocating sex for engaged couples -- I meant to refer to kissing, touching, etc. But I still maintain my point about the rest being a civil ceremony.
The problem with viewing the rest as a civil ceremony is that even a committed couple may experience a split during the engagement period. While a normal amount of kissing during this period is okay, I believe that given certain circumstances accompanied by certain types of touching can put people in a position where sexual intimacy is no longer an urge but a need, especially for those who have previously been sexually active, whether it was inside marriage or not.
During the engagement period couples experience more strain on their relationship than any other time up to that point (in most cases) and this can be the make or break point for the couple. They may have already made the commitment to each other, but unless it is publicly documented and witnessed one or both persons can still back out without having to go through the divorce process, which...well I won't go into the issue of divorce. Nonetheless, it can be dangerous to view the engagement period as a time when the couple has already committed so it condones certain kissing in touching. I think kissing and touching during this time period are very dangerous and should be approached with caution and prayer by believers of God's word.
-Danielle-
The above post sort of makes my point. A couple who views the engagement period as a last opportunity to make a decision about whether they want to get married or not has no business getting engaged. While I agree there are always exceptions to this rule, an engagement is a commitment. Period.
But ultimately, I agree that everyone should make this decision for themselves. Only the individual can know what they are capable of handling sexually.
i also find it interesting how many unmarried christian couples ask "how far is too far?" as if to say "how close can i get to the line without actually crossing it? how close can i step to the fire without actually being burned?" i agree with rachel in that couples should decide on what is too much temptation for them as a couple, regardless of the world's standards (or even other christians' standard for that matter). i do, however feel there is a definite line for ALL couples that shouldn't be crossed at all. but, anything in front of that line need be discussed and agreed upon by both parties. and the question shouldn't be "how far is too far?" it should be "are we glorifying God in all of our decisions and actions?"
This is such a difficult subject to cover. I think that while it may be frustrating to just hear "save yourself for marriage" it is dangerous to say specifics on how far is too far. Let me clarify with a simple example...for some kissing on the lips is the line,but for another couple this much may be too far. For a youth pastor to say that you should only kiss on the lips and no more may sound good, but then what if the couple who kissing on the lips would really be too far does this and it just leads to more. Also, some may kiss on the lips and others may kkkiiisssss on the lips (hope that makes sense). I think that it is important for couples to understand their bodies and their desires and to recognize that sexual temptation/sin is something we are told to flee in the Bible. At other times we are told to resist the devil but in sexual temptation we are told to flee! From my own experience, kissing on the lips was too much and just opened the door to other desires that would make the struggle for purity even harder.
Same person as directly above again, and I would like to add to my post that when we begin in any form of sensual touch it opens the door to greater and stronger desires that just become more difficult to deny. I agree with Lindsey in that the question we should be asking is "does this glorify God?"
EG
I also agree with what Lindsey said about asking if what you're doing brings glory to God. This is why I stated earlier that it is a very dangerous position that must be handled with care. I do not think that a couple has any business getting engaged if they are not committed to each other, but the problem is that people may feel like they are totally and 100 percent committed to each other, but the strain of the engagement period may tear them apart...OR they may use sexual things to deal with the stress and strain of the relationships and then when the couple finally gets married they do not know how to communicate or deal with problems by any means other than sex...not that this doesn't happen sometimes anyway...but how much worse would it be in this case?
I could go on and on about the "what ifs" all day long, but the bottom line goes back to bringing glory to God and remembering that God sets boundaries for a reason. That reason is that he loves us and wants to protect his children from the pain associated with sin.
-Danielle-
Howdy Folks -- a general comment to all. I promise that I will get to everyone's questions. Please do not stop asking them. With my travels I am sometimes slow getting back to you, but I will get back. Peace.
Henry -- I couldn't agree more that we should not buy into anything that "detracts from the seriousness of premarital sex." In Romans, Paul asks that great rhetorical question, "Should we sin just to so grace will abound more?" The answer, "No!" In that, I (obviously) do not believe one can physically become a virgin again. However, the Gospel of Christ is about nothing if it's not about forgiveness. And Christ said in the Revelation, "I make all things new." So, it's a conundrum, huh? I think the question is, for those who have fallen into premarital sex and sought forgiveness and restoration, what do they do then? Do they focus on purity? Or simply keep doing the same things, constantly seeking forgiveness? God can forgive and heal all sins -- and that includes sex. But that does not mean the scars, emotional and otherwise, are removed, which brings up huge issues in counseling. I'm sure you'll talk about that in class.
Rachel-- you're right. The 'ol "Where's the line?" question has been asked a zillion times. How far is too far? As you also wisely pointed out, problems arise because anything -- from holding hands on -- can make us want to keep going -- and going -- like the Energizer Bunny. That is why a couple and an individual must know where they (and God) want to stop before they are ever in a situation where hormones are in the driver's seat. On engaged couples-- I'll never forget a female friend I had in seminary 25 years ago. She shared with me that she had been engaged and her fiancee had convinced her that it was the same as being married and therefore it would be okay for them to have sex. She was a virgin till that point. Thinking she should trust his lead, she went along. Afterwards, he said, "That was the best thing we've ever done." She said, "That was the worst." And her pain was so deep, she called off the wedding; feeling she couldn't really trust him. One thing that sex before the wedding tells our future mates is, "Sex isn't important enough for me to keep just for when we're married." I also encourage you to re-read the part in Sacred Sex that talks about the Covenant of marriage. The spoken words of the wedding ceremony are a very important part of the marriage covenant; and, as in any covenant, the spoken oath should come before the oath sign, which, in this case, is sex. Finally, statistics show that almost 50% of engaged couples break up before the wedding. Not a real good guarantee. Don't stop wrestling with this question!!
Y'all have all made such great comments on this issue, I should probably just stay out of it. Oh well. I know there have been times in my life when I wish the New Testament had the Book of Dating and Marriage, and that it would specifically spell out the How far question, and what about Kkkkiiiissssiiinng -- a great point by one of the anonymous posters. I think there are two bottom line questions on the premarital physical activity question-- One, as you already said, "Does it bring glory to God?" and, two, "Is this anything I would be ashamed to tell my spouse future spouse about -- if this person I'm with is not my future spouse?" Our bodies and our sexuality are precious gifts from God that we in turn have the privilege of choosing to share with our mates -- to give it to them as a gift. The tag along question is, "How special is what I'm doing going to be when I get married, if I've done it with "x" number of people?"
Never stop asking questions. Peace.
Doc Gardner...I have really appreciated what you have to add to our comments on the blog!! Thanks for joining us.
EG
On the "what to teach about sex in families and churches" -- my first thought is, "Everything and early." Far too much sex education -- or mis-education -- is happening at very young ages, primarily through the Net, but also from friends/other kids. As you know from my book, my hope is that we do a much better job of teaching the "whys" of sex than the "hows." We're inundated with “hows” and “why nots?” but not much on “why sex to begin with.” And that conversation, in my opinion, needs to occur at a very young age at home – meaning before puberty/hormones kick in – and from the pulpit and elsewhere in church regularly. I am amazed at how infrequently most churches talk about healthy sexuality when so many of their dear folks are struggling with unhealthy sexuality. Again, we don’t need sermons on “Don’t commit adultery;” we need talks on the Sacredness of Sex and how selfishness, porn, and more, destroy it.
On the parameters of how far is too far. First of all, I share your frustration with many church leaders and their “less then helpful” teachings on sex. To their defense, my opinion is far too few of them have really worked out their own “theology of sexuality;” as such, it’s hard to teach with much clarity and conviction.
I also understand the frustration of being told “don’t” but not “how much.” The problem and the reality on the subject of sexual boundaries is that we, as humans, seem to have this “toes to the line” mentality. What I mean by that is, well … imagine the three year boy who is told by his parents to NOT to get off of the sidewalk. What would nearly every three year old you know do? Put his toes as close to the edge as humanly possible. Of course, some kids wouldn’t, some we put them to the edge and be fine, and others would just keep on pushing it until – he fell off the sidewalk. And, no, as he will scream to his parents, he “didn’t mean to do it.”
If someone authoritatively said, “Touching a woman on her (fill in the blank – your choice) is a far as you can go,” then all three scenarios would apply. Some folks would be okay, most would continuously push it to the dangerous point, and some would fall too far – and they were not meaning to do it. This circumstance would be exacerbated by the fact that there are two people involved (not just the one kid) who, most likely, would handle that line differently from the first person. If you put another three year old on the sidewalk, is the first kid now more likely or less likely to fall off as they both run and shove each other around?
Read Phil. 2:12, 13, the ‘ol work it out with “fear and trembling” verse. I think God wants each of us to work this one out – and it should cause fear and trembling, we should take it very seriously. We are the ones that need to stand before God and share why we are choosing to use His gift of sexuality and sex the way we do. If someone else gives us a line, we can blame them. This is for us, as those who are called to reflect His glory, to work out on our own.
Peace.
EG-- it's my pleasure. Thanks for letting me join in.
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